Snook Opening

[krash]

........to undo that affirmative action while the recovery is still along way from complete goes against the original intent of the moratorium.

The 'open it up' side is using science to justify their stance. Lots of reports and graphs and measurements and numbers and spreadsheets. The 'keep it closed' side is using conjecture and personal experience. Lots of "I don't see recovery in my area" and "There used to be dozens under that dock light but now there are only 2 or 3" and "I haven't caught a slot snook in 2 years". While valid observation, it is not something that can be used to develop policy.

Agree or disagree with the science presented, science backed arguments will almost always win. Now, the FWC has certainly had it's science challenged in previous issues. Often it seems as if the science was developed to support a side instead of developing good policy.

Might be time for a scientific approach from the 'keep it closed' folks.

Maybe its just your honey hole that is depleted.. I have found over the years that many times once an area is decimated the fish either never come back or it takes years.
My nephews are catching more Snook that ever, assorted sizes, everytime they go out out for them over in Tampa area. Friends at Choko are catching as many or more than ever there also, and many many small ones.
Bonefish on the other hand down here in S. Biscayne Bay don't seem to be coming back since the freeze, but I think thats more due to the fresh water runoff dumping thats been going on for 2 months.

[sfurman]

Since we are talking anecdotal data (hearsay), I have heard some of that too. I also have some close friends that volunteer to work for a lot of the high end fishing tournaments that are conducted in Tampa Bay. I call them high end because the entry fees are usually very high and the tournaments often include a guide.

These tournaments are all CPR and usually allow live bait to be used. After the freeze there was definitely a reduction in photos being turned in. The following year the number of photos of snook went up significantly. This year so far they are telling me that they are getting lots of photos of snook, and I mean some nice quality fish. They say it is as good as it was before the freeze.

This is of course not very scientific but, apparently that doesn’t matter. It is just an observation from folks that fish and get an opportunity to see a special event where photos are collected for the event. Also, these guys are using live bait and all you have to do is ask the tarpon fishermen on this forum about using live bait over artificial when it comes to fish catching.

I too have heard from some guides that would love to keep snook closed for another year and if fact most of those same guides would love to keep snook closed forever. It is their bread and butter fish and they would love to be able to tell their customers that they have to let it go, it’s the law.

Just let them go then, you always have that option, many angles make that choice already.

Again, the fact is the regulations are so tight on snook that even if they had opened them back up after the freeze with the current regulations in place they probably would have recovered just as fast. The tight regulations are designed just for that purpose, to give the fish the most opportunity to flourish. It probably helped some but, they would have recovered anyway. They were increasing in numbers before the freeze and there was no closure then and in fact their numbers were much worse depending on how far back you want to go. Either way they increased in number without any closures. It was due to the tight regs.

I can’t let my emotions dictate the regulations, I can only go by what the data and the scientists calculate. Even if the data is not what we want it to be, unless someone can come up with something better and more reliable then that is all we have. Please show me the data.

[John]

How about they show us the data, all of it and how they came to their conclusions.

The FWC is a government agency, government is intended to serve the people not control it.

[Heywood]

This data relies heavily on fishing surveys done at ramps and other locations. Interviews with guides and recreational fisherman alike. Surveys that are heavily flawed as most reports are embellished. (I know several guides who have a hard time with math )

You want data Steve, go to any of the traditional spawning areas on the south shore and see how many "Breeder" snook you catch.

[sfurman]

They also do seine net sampling where they go out and seine fish in specific areas, I am sure you have seen that, where they end up killing a bunch of fish in the process.

Anyway, of course the data is flawed, it is impossible to get accurate recreational fishing data. You simply cannot get info from every fisherman out there that leaves from his home dock in the middle of the night or fishes the bridge or shore line or have someone standing by at the every boat ramp 24/7 or call every fisherman every week or whatever.

The methods they use to collect and evaluate the data have been around for decades and any one of the scientist that use it will tell you that there is nothing exact about any of it. They use statistical math to generate the results they get. It is the best way to do it for the money they have to spend. If you guys have a better way, then let’s hear it, I am all ears.

Every time the regulators try to implement a change the ones that feel the change is not in their favor always point their finger at the data and call it flawed and corrupt or whatever. We all complain about it all the time but, it is the best we can do. Sorry for that, none of you wants a better system than I do.

We cannot manage our fishery using the lynch mob mentality, can we?? Is that what we should do then?? How do I know the people that are in support of a C&R only fishery aren’t fudging their stories? Especially when I get contradicting stories all the time. How did we get to where we were before the freeze without any closures? The season is closed most of the year and the fish you can keep when you can keep then is in such a narrow slot it is almost impossible to catch a keeper anyway, the fishery is virtually closed by default as it is.

Anyway, I think I have said all I can say at this point and it is obviously more than some want me to say. I am done unless someone has a specific question they would like for me to answer. I have tried to justify my position to you all as you have tried to justify yours to me. You guys can have the last word.

Tight Lines!,

Steve

[mauso1]

Alrighty then..I really want ya'll to think about what just happened to me at Big Lots in B Town.

I am standing in the line and the gal is checking out my items and this real nice but real old white hair is in line behind me. Evidently she noticed I had on a fish print shirt ( marlin ) so she says to me "ya know ya can keep snook" I said what? "oh yes as long as they are at least 28" long you can keep snook. "

I couldn't help but ask her so when can you keep these snook ? "oh I don't know but as long as they are 28" you can keep snook. I tried to expalin the spring fall limited season thing to her and the slot limit but she just kept sayin' " ya know you can keep snook as long as they are at least 28". I wonder if her hubby is a fisherman?

I sure hope she is simply confused by misinformation but if not I hope she is a very minute minority of fisher people out there.

[John]

Lynch mob mentality? Hardly that Steve, people asking for an obviously questionable decision to be reconsidered.

The scientific data used is made of a large portion of boat ramp reports, some Seine netting population assessments.

Far from exhaustive, as you said yourself not wholly reliable.

Certainly the vast majority of anglers I have spoken with would prefer to see an extension to the closure.
At a recent club meeting with over 60 members in attendance, a poll was taken on the closure 90% were in favour of an extension.


The FWC met yesterday with concerned guides asking for rethink, hopefully they will see sense and give our fishery an extended period of protection.

[mauso1]

The FWC met yesterday with concerned guides asking for rethink, hopefully they will see sense and give our fishery an extended period of protection.

Well that's a start ..Keep us posted John

[sfurman]

There already was a meeting back in May or June, can't remember off the top of my head, specifically for this purpose, why weren't they at that one?

[John]

There already was a meeting back in May or June, can't remember off the top of my head, specifically for this purpose, why weren't they at that one?

I don't know Steve, I don't manage their diaries, you'd have to ask them,

[nemo327]

Why would they open snook season before they fully recover? Follow the money. How many snook stamps are sold when the season is closed. I'll bet they lost tons of revenue for a perennially cash strapped gov. agency.

[krash]

Why would they open snook season before they fully recover? Follow the money. How many snook stamps are sold when the season is closed. I'll bet they lost tons of revenue for a perennially cash strapped gov. agency.

How long does it take to fully recover ?


I doubt that the revenue of Snook stamp sales even pays for 1 state biologist doing the research.

[sfurman]

Because they are recovered. The science was never intended to be exact and no one ever said it was it is a trend that has been tracked for several decades. It is used to determine the health of the resource and historically these trends are very representative of the health of the resource.

The reason I asked about the meeting is because there were about 150 people that attended the meeting, most were there to comment on tarpon, about 35 or so got up and gave public testimony on snook. Out of those 35, 3 were in favor of keeping it closed.

I don't understand why people don't speak up when they ask for their input, why does everyone wait until all the decisions are made? I just don't see the FWC changing their position at this point, again for all the reasons I gave earlier. Anyway good luck with your efforts you never know unless you try.

For me it really won't matter anyway, I am like you John, I can't catch a keeper anyway.

[krash]

So the season is open now either way.. how badly are all the Snook keepers decimating the population ?

Check the launch sites and fish cleaning tables, are we seeing many carcus's layong around ?

[GILs_GONE_WILD]

I'm betting the Snook fishery will be OK ... not too sure about the fishermen here.

"IF" another cold front kills a few more this year then shut it down again. Shit happens. I don't live my life on "IFs".

Very few Snook will be caught and eaten within the slot. Get over it. It's open!!!

[22acrowd]

Ahh. This argument again. Remember when people were complaining about people harvesting snook when the population was arguably the healthiest it had been in my lifetime? I do. Funny how so many fishermen all of a sudden become biologists on message boards when people are going after "their fish".

There will always be the camp that does not want people to harvest fish because THEY do not harvest fish. I see one former poster from this forum getting all butt hurt on Facebook right now about this issue and I find it rather ironic. Someone who makes a living taking people out fishing daily/weekly is causing far more damage to the fishery directly and indirectly than a couple of yahoos who keep a snook now-and-then regardless of whether his clients are keeping fish.

This will always be an issue of social and personal responsibility.

Full disclosure: I do not harvest fish nor do I have any intentions on harvesting a fish anytime soon.